This topic contains 15 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by Unknown 5 years ago.
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G’day,
I think the application of the green waste straight to your clean ground at this time of year (in Oz) would be fine. By planting out time, much will have been incorporated into the topsoil by earthworms. The simplest explanation , that I think you may have missed, is that one plants out pre-grown plants from modules, trays (flats?) in early season. The sowing of seeds into settled compost is no different to sowing in a tray. Select your position in beds to suit and, yes , rotation is desirable ,year on year.I have never seen any need to use rock dust on my London Clay, but other soils might benefit.
Charles may well respond himself .
My recollection is that no-dig works excellently in UK conditions and climate, whereas it may not work as well in extreme climatic conditions. The clearest indication would be by looking at the surface layers of established forest in your locale. In our latitude, they have a constant ‘compost’layer in evidence. That is what we aim to replicate.
Good luck.Please report back
CleansweepIn response to your question about pre grown plants from modules – correct, these are just seeds that have been planted in plugs/modules and have germinated and grown into little seedlings. Charles raises almost all his plants this way (Carrots and Parsnips being two notable exceptions), as he gets much better results. The seedlings are more resilient, and less prone to insect and wildlife attack by the time they are planted out, than seeds straight in the ground.
Charles uses a dibber, of approx the same diameter as the plug, which saves time. Dib a row of holes, pop the plugs out and simply drop them in the hole. Its better to plant the seedlings slightly deeper than you’d maybe expect, only just above the level of the surrounding soil, as this gives them extra protection as they establish. And no need to firm them in and backfill, you can just drop the plugs into the dibbed holes and they’ll grow fine. The beauty of Charles method is he has refined it over 40 years to cut out all the unnecessary time wasting work, making it a much more efficient use of your time.Rotation – Charles does advocate this, but perhaps not as rigorously as other say. If you are double cropping a bed in one season, you don’t need to rotate. But a good idea to do so from season to season when possible. Established perennials stay where they are of course.
Fine to dump the compost and simply plant the plugs straight into it, as long as it is well rotted (approx 1 year for farmyard manure), or not too hot in the case of green manure. Green manure will probably have slightly less nutrient value than the humus rich option. A mix of both would be good, but should be fine on its own, it looks like decent compost on the link you provided.
Every year, you just top up the compost once. a few inches on each bed. No other fertilisers needed
Good luck with it.
Precise instructions will vary with location. Your first post has links to New South Wales.
The variations of climate, day length and frost will clearly depend on latitude, altitude and aspect.
Therefore my replies relate just to N E Hampshire, England, my location.
You may find this link is locally appropriate.
See:
https://permaculturenews.org
My process for cabbage, as an example, would be this.
Upon cleaned ground, a layer initially 75-100mm of whatever composted materials can be procured. Variously, green waste compost, composted farm yard manure, spent mushroom compost, or a blend of whatever.This would be applied at the end of the main growing season,here that would be October-November .With you, now.
Seeds are sown in modules(divided trays), ideally 2 seeds per 50mm square,from February into April, placed in a greenhouse and grown to average of 6 true leaves each. Here that takes 6-7 weeks.
From late March -June these plants are planted out into the overwintered composted bed in the intended cropping position, and in my case, netted against pigeons and Cabbage white butterfly.
Normally the only maintenance would be to remove any weed, maybe water in extreme seasons but not usually.
Amongst the usual vegetable varieties, I would direct seed only: potatoes tuber,carrots, beetroot, rocket,chard,spinach,parsnips, late runner beans. Later (July) for autumn/winter use, salads, rocket,etc.
All the other crops follow the cabbage model to varying timescales.
Charles DOWDLING, this host site, produces a range of guide books SOLD FROM THIS SITE.See above.
Recommended.1:” Planting directly in the compost I linked should be fine.”
YES2: “The humus rich product they got (recarb essence) may have more nutrition than the mulch compost. I could plant in either or mix the 2… maybe get a few bags of each and test through winter just to see the difference before buying the bulk amount.”
YES, BUT REMEMBER THE NUTRITION YOU APPLY/DERIVE FROM THE COMPOST IS TO PROMOTE SOIL BIOLOGY WHICH IN TURN FEEDS THE PLANT.3:” No fertiliser needed as such, but I could use seaweed extract just for the initial growth help etc if I wanted to (wouldn’t hurt If i did use it)”
YES4:” Plant everything* in trays first and let them establish and then once they are established (5-10cm tall plants) transfer from tray to the compost truck dumped out on ground.”
YES BUT NOTE *EXCEPTIONS IN MY PREVIOUS.5:” Plant seeds about 2 per 50mm tray cup. I guess that is just incase 1 seed doesn’t germinate? Could even end up with both failing lol.”
YES, BUY /SAVE QUALITY FRESH SEED“Regarding carrots… I read they should be planted directly in the ground because if you transplant them they will fork due to the roots.”
YES, AS A CHEAPLY AVAILABLE STAPLE , NOT WORTH MUCH TIME EITHER“Now if I stick 1 seed per where I intend the carrot to grow… I could/will end up with many blank spots where the seed did not germinate. So if I just sprinkle the carrot seeds in a trench (the way you would parsley) – i could end up eith 3-5 or more seeds in one spot. If many of them do germinate… I read I need to thin them out… what does that mean? Do you just grab the carrot in the soil and push them appart (through the soil without pulling them out) or?”
YES, BUT I PLANT A PINCH (3-4 SEEDS) AT 50MM INTERVALS IN A DOUBLE ROW 50MM APART, AVOID THINNING TO AVOID DISTURBANCE.2What would be the list of vegetables that should be planted directly where you want it to grow to avoid transplanting besides carrots?
” SEE PREVIOUS POST“Last: Cardboard or newspaper… should I put this on the ground where i got grass and then stick compost on that or will 10-15cm thick compost be enough to kill it off anyway? Its not short grass, its some wild garbage that grows in sharp long stick like grass straw that clumps up in spots, so you go no grass then a clump of this straw like stuff which has a very hard root/ball, when you try to run mower over it you have to push real hard to get it to climb over. Im not sure if that would die off or just grow straight through the compost….”
I MOW OFF PRIOR TO CARDBOARD. LEAVE MOWINGS IF NOT A CREEPING GRASS.TUSSOCKS COULD BE CHIPPED OFF OR BURNT WITH WEED TORCH. CARDBOARD IS A BARRIER TO SUNLIGHT NOT UPWARD SHOOTS.“regarding the newspaper/cardboard should it be the entire size of where I plan the compost to go… including pathway to walk on? ( so compost should cover the whole area including pathway not just the beds on their own)? And should it be just as thick on pathway (eg: for a test run i am planning to do 2 beds 1.2m wide by 2m long with a 60cm pathway inbetween… should i then cover the entire area 2m long and the whole width including the pathway 1.2m+60cm+1.2m same thickness all the way and then just walk on the pathway bit which will make that drop down a bit more than the bed itself or should i cover the entire area but put less compost over the pathway maybe 5cm instead of the 10-15? Or is this all irrelevant and just fill the whole area and walk where the pathway is intended to be?”
BECAUSE YOU SEEK TO EXCLUDE SUNLIGHT FROM THE GREEN LEAF, THEREBY IMPEDING PHOTOSYNTHYSIS
EXCEED THE TOTAL PLOT BY , SAY 75MM. OVERLAP EACH CARDBOARD SHEET BY , SAY, 75MM.
COMPOST IS TOO VALUABLE FOR PATH USE, I GET A (FREE!) SUPPLY OF COARSE WOODCHIP FROM TREE SURGEONS UTILISED FOR PATHS. IT DECOMPOSES IN 3 SEASONS.
“how thick should the compost above ground be? Considering carrots etc can grow quite long… That will help me calculate how much material I need to trial this.”APPLICATION OF 150MM COMPOST IS EXTRAVAGANT!-FIRST YEAR 75-100MM, SUBSEQUENT YEARS GENERALLY 25MM, APPLIED IN AUTUMN.
YOUR CROPS WILL READILY GROW DOWN INTO THE (building layer)OF TOPSOIL,SEEKING MOISTURE.
A FEATURE THAT I HAVE NOTICED IN THE 4 SEASONS OF NO-DIG, IS THE TREMENDOUS INCREASE IN ROOT DEVELOPMENT OF CROPS.I ATTACH A PHOTO OF A SINGLE CELERY PLANT
THERE IS NO REASON NOT MULCH STANDING CROPS BETWEEN THE ROWS IF WISH TO PERHAPS TO MAINTAIN MOISTURE.I seriously recommend that you source some (at least one ) of Charles’s books- he would post, I expect ,at your cost.
Thanks for the detailed reply.
“Any particular book of the ones available you think would be the best place to start judging by my questions?” I HAVE’ SALAD LEAVES FOR ALL SEASONS’ & ‘HOW TO GROW WINTER VEG’, THE BOOKS ARE NOT A SERIES LIKE AN ENCYCLOPEDIA, MORE LIKE ROUTE MAPS TO TRAVEL FROM VARIOUS STARTING POINTS TO REACH A CENTRAL OBJECTIVE.’HOW TO CREATE A NEW VEG GARDEN ‘ WOULD SEEM A GOOD CHOICE.
Re: 100mm thick compost, plant carrots into that… and its ok if carrots go through the compost and try to grow into the hard clay rubbish underneath? WELL WHERE ELSE CAN THEY GO? ONLY CONCERN WOULD BE IF KNOWN TO BE POLLUTED WITH CHEMICALS/OIL ETC. CARROTS COME IN’STUMPY’VARIETIES ALSO.
Cardboard should exceed the size of the plot? Does that mean the external bits will be naked cardboard or would you put the would chips over the edges like a boarder/path to walk around so noncardboard left visible? YES, ANY EXCESS CAN BE REMOVED ONCE CARD IS SOAKED THROUGH.
Pathway you suggest I make the 2 beds with compost and instead of wasting compost inbetween the beds, to put wood chips which are cheaper instead to walk on? So it will look like rows black (compost) brown (wood chips) black brown etc.? YES, KEEP THE WOODCHIP WEED FREE, IT SOON DECOMPOSES AND DARKENS
I wondered about that because charles garden from the videos is all black 🙂
And with the carrots you mentioned, 50mm appart double rows… So you would habe the outer row and one row behind it 50mm appart and you would make a hole every 50mm in the row and plant 3-4 seeds in each hole and i guess if 2 or 3 germinate the carrots will push themselves appart initially (thats why 50mm of space between each hole) so that i wont have to touch them?YES
If i got cardboard on the ground and the carrot gets to the carboard as the compost is only 100mm thick… is the carrot going to break through the
cardboard to get to the rubbish clay underneath? I guess that cardboard will eventually disintegrate… ONCE SOAKED THE CARDBOARD IS SOFTWould it be ok just to stick the compost on that existing straw like grass… when the grass grows up above the compost dig the grass out and just keep doing that until it eventually stops growing (thus no cardboard needed)? HERE CARDBOARD IS FREE FOR COLLECTION FROM WHITE GOODS SELLERS AND CYCLE SHOPS ETC. IE READILY AVAILABLE. YOU NEED BROWN CORRUGATED CARDBOARD BOXES, AVOID WHITE GLOSSY OR WAXED CARTONS.BIGGER THE BOXES THE BETTER.
And last thing I thought of back to the carrot if i got cardboard on grass and 100mm thick, how will the carrot grow down through the grass? POINTED END FIRST.
Wouldn’t I be better off using a spade or hoe just to dig out the lawn where i plan the garden to be to avoid all of the above and then place the compost on top of dirt with no concern about grass or cardboard etc being there? THEN YOU WOULD LOSE THE TOP SOIL PROFILE AND THE LIVE SOIL BIOLOGY THAT HAS SUPPORTED THE GRASS
And heres an off topic question:
Seeds – I will get a batch of organic heirloom seeds and other seeds are only available as un-treated.
Untreated is not certified organic but the seed itself has not been chemically treated. Having said that though the vegetables/plants those seeds came out from would of been done under regular farming practices, fertilisers of all kinds sprays etc etc but ofcoirse the actual seed has not been chemically treated.
Organic seeds on other hand come out of vegetables/plants that have certified organic practices.
Is there actually a difference?
I CANNOT ADVISE: I GROW VEGETABLES IN ORGANIC CONDITIONS, WITH MINIMAL INPUT OF ANY SYNTHETIC SUBSTANCE. MARKETED ORGANIC PRODUCE DEPENDS UPON THE DEFINITION. I DO NOT CONSIDER THAT THE PLANT STRAIN IS DIFFERENT, BUT AM CONTENT TO GIVE MY CROPS THE BEST NATURAL CONDITIONS THAT I CAN. HEALTHY, VIGOROUS PLANTS ARE LESS SUSCEPTABLE TO PESTS OR DISEASES, THEREFORE DO NOT REQUIRE CHEMICAL TREATMENT. I GROW FOR OWN CONSUMPTION, THEREFORE PROFIT MOTIVE IS NOTIONAL ONLY.Vegetables like onions etc (pretty much all vegetables – not capsicums tomato etc) grow seed on the outside of the plant. If the seeds are untreated but the farming method is not organic… are not the seeds by default then “sprayed” and therefor do have chemicals on them even though they say untreated? If the seeds are untreated in the fullest sense of word wouldn’t that make them organic then? Curious.
I THINK ‘ UNTREATED’ RELATES TO THE CONDITION OF THE DRIED SEED AFTER HARVEST.IE NOT CONTAINING FUNGICIDE, GROWTH STIMULANT, GROWTH REGULATOR, COLOURANT, DESSICANT ETC.I HAVE NOT THOUGHT OF IT RELATING TO THE PARENT TREATMENT REGIME.Another good source of information are Charles videos, free to view.
I find these invaluable as a reference alongside the excellent books.
You’ll find these on the website under
Learn – Browse All – then scroll along to the right to find videos.
You’ll also find them all on his You Tube channel
Best of luckHaving consulted last years list, I planted carrots in weeks 6,10,18,22 &34 Various varieties, with more than 1 on the mid season plantings. week 1 is New Years Day.
My standard row is 2.4 metres. Harvesting is progressive, and we use carrots raw and cooked.The last (wk 34) overwintered under cloches and are just about ready now as finger carrots. I tend to grow open pollinated, heirloom varieties for flavour, which mature at differing times, rather than the uniform F1 commercial which are bred to be ready for mechanical extraction as a field. I adopt a similar approch to other crops. My ‘challenge’ is to always have something to harvest on every visit to the plot, throughout the year. My plot tenure is on the basis of crop share, so a surplus to my own requirements ‘pays’ the rent!
The nature of this ‘sport’ is one either has gluts or b**g*r all!“Is this what is done with pretty much everything else too? Cabbage, beetroot, onion, broccoli, potato, garlic, celery, tomato, capsicum, eggplant, green beans?”
NO, there is a peak season for each, sometimes extendable with succession plantings, also perhaps by the use of hoophouses(polytunnels in english!) Only supermarkets have strawberries 365 days.
Every location will have differing climatic conditions which are the dominant influence, be it frost, day length,light level,sunshine, rainfall, etc.Each crop will have its own requirements and success will be related to optimising conditions. You need to research what works in your climate, perhaps you have a neighbour with’ green fingers’?
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