Not digging without manure – can it be done?

[compostpopeParticipant]

Hi, my first day on this great web-site and I wonder if it’s possible to use this approach without importing trailer loads of muck onto the allotment? What are the alternatives?

I live in Switzerland and there is no tradition of using muck on gardens – I guess cow and pig muck goes staight back onto the fields, and there’s not much of a horsey scene here as there is the uk so it just does not happen. (I’m also wary of importing persistant herbicides)

I make as much compost as I can and have been spreading that on to my weed free, clayish soil in layers up to 1 inch deep every year in spring either before planting or afterwards. It disapears over the growing season and I usually have enough to put on another inch on to any beds not covered by green manure in the autumn. I’ve not been digging-over the soil in the last 3 years, but instead I’ve been sticking a fork in after applying the compost and rather aggressively waggling it back and forth, then knocking it level again with a rake.(is this a good idea?) Yields have been ok but not outstanding and the soil condition and earthworm numbers do not seem to have improved much (it still forms a bit of a crust when it dries out which makes direct sowing a bit difficult).

From what I’ve managed to read on the web-site today I’m starting to think that I should have started by spreading much thicker levels (6 inches)of well rotted manure or compost to start with and then top that up every autumn with another couple of inches – but I can’t see how I can possibly make enough compost to do that….

Suggestions/advice/comments anyone?

[charlesModerator]

 Welcome to the site, it sounds like you are doing well already, except for disturbing your soil with a fork! Stopping that will conserve some extra fertility and help maintain a softer surface.
An inch of compost every year should be enough but if your soil was low in organic matter to start with, some more would be good, and the fact that it disappears over a season shows the hunger of your worms and other soil life. Is there any municipal composting near you?
In the 1940s there were also successful no dig gardeners who used thnner layers of compost, with some sawdust on top of their soil (F.C.King, James Gunston).

[RosMember]

I just wonder if you have any deciduous trees near you – I collect leaves and pile them up for about a year and then use them to mulch in addition to my compost. Not much nutrients in them but they are good at improving the soil structure I find.

[Pete BuddParticipant]

Hi compostpope

I have been developing a self sustaining composting system for nearly 20 years and I`m learning all the time. I have several allotments varying from loamy clay to sandy loam. My oldest plot (20 yrs) has been improving in productivity year on year and is now very fertile. I mainly grow comfrey (permanent bed about 10% of total plot), alfalfa, grazing rye and phacelia. Alfalfa is longer term and is occupying about 10% from August for about 18 months. I suppose I have about 25% occupied by green manures in the growing season but I try to minimise bare ground in winter by sowing shorter term stuff such as phacelia and field beans. Rye forms the most bulk and is followed by leeks around May/June leaving a little for seed saving. Alfalfa needs to be sown before the end of August here and usually follows my onion crop. Rye can be sown quite late but September is best and usually follows my potato crop. NOTE: I do not dig anything in. Everything goes in the compost bin and I try to get it suitable for mulching as soon as possible. This usually depends how quickly the rye has decomposed. I probably cut the comfrey and alafalfa twice during the growing season depending on the season. Most of the resulting compost is put on my brassica bed in autumn or spring but some is used to mulch fruit and squashes.

Hope this helps

Pete

[compostpopeParticipant]

Thanks for the reply Charles.

I’ve been reading through your wonderful website a bit more and I see that on weed-free ground a layer of 6 inches of compost is not necessary. I appreciate your comment about the probable lack of organic matter in my soil – sadly the previous allotment holder was famous not for his use of compost but for his heavy use of artificial fertilisers and herbicides (hence the lack of weeds!).

I will concentrate what compost I have by spreading it on in 3 inch layers on as many beds as it will run to this year, then replenish these beds next year with a layer 1 inch thick whilst I put thicker layer on the beds that received none this time. I hope the thicker layers of compost applied now will mean that I have a soft enough layer for planting in the spring so that I won’t have to resort to any more fork-waggling!

The council here supply shredded and partly-composted organic material for free. It’s coarse, brown, full of short bits of chipped twigs and not at all like the fine, soil-like produce of municipal composting that I used to get back in the uk. It’s meant for adding structure and volume to the compost heap and it makes very good compost very quickly. I don’t think it would be suitable for putting direct onto my vegetable beds as I dont think it will break down enough and I doubt it has much nutrient value as it is. I can get unlimited amounts of this stuff for free, so if anyone has ideas about obtaining greenstuff to put with it in the compost heap I would be interested to hear from them – I’m considering growing green manure crops for adding to the compost heap – is this a good idea? which green manure crop would be best for this?

Thanks once again,

Compostpope

[compostpopeParticipant]

Thanks for the reply Ros

I have collected leaves in the past and agree with you about the improvement in soil structure, but I found that you do have to collect a lot and I don’t have enough space to store the volumes needed to make enough to cover all my beds….

Compostpope

[Pete BuddParticipant]

You may have missed my reply above, the way the messages are displayed take a bit of getting used to because they are not necessarily in date order.

Pete:-)

[compostpopeParticipant]

Thanks for your detailed reply this morning – I missed it whilst submitting responses to Charles and Ros. You are right – it does take a bit of getting used to but the effort is well worth it.

Your response contained lots of really valuable information – particularly good was reading which green manure crops you’ve found work and your estimates regarding space devoted to them. I wonder if you could clear up a few things for me?

I’ve looked in an old HDRA catalogue for rye seeds – do you use “Hungarian grazing rye” or “annual ryegrass”?
If you are not digging in the roots of the rye grass and the alfalfa do you simply cut the stems off at ground level and let them die off or pull them out or smother them with another layer of compost?
If you cut the alfalfa twice – when do you do this?

Thanks again

Compostpope

[diggernotdreamerMember]

You could collect the urine from your home and mix with water and add to the municipal shreddings, the nitrogen in the urine will help the tougher stuff to break down. I used to collect all my neighbours grass mowings and vegetable peelings to mix in with woody shreddings to give a good mix of materials. I sometimes put my chicken bedding which consists mainly of shavings straight on the beds in winter if I run out of compost bin space, it seems to break down quite well and by spring has composted down quite nicely. Some people keep rabbits and guinea pigs, you could see if neighbours keep these little pets and collect their bedding as well.

[compostpopeParticipant]

Thanks diggernotdreamer, I already use my own “personal activator” and all my kitchen kitchen and garden waste in the compost heap with the municipal shreddings and don’t know of any pets willing to donate their beds.

The only thing you’ve suggested that I’m not using large amounts of is grass mowings (these I spread around the fruit bushes as a mulch). Do you think a mix of just grass mowings and shreddings (plus personal activator) would make a good compost to spread on my beds??

[diggernotdreamerMember]

Grass mowings are an excellent source of nitrogen, layer the mowings, shreddings and personal activator, too thick layer of mowings does not work well so thinner layers are best, but this will heat everything up well and break the woodier stuff up nicely. After the heat goes out of it, turn it and incorporate more compost activators (ie mowings, urine, nettle tops, comfrey) Make sure your shreddings are nice and damp as well. You should get some lovely stuff

[Pete BuddParticipant]

Hi compostpope
The methods I use are not exactly the same as Charles` no-dig. I allow for some soil disturbance but this is minimal i.e. lifting root crops and pulling up “Hungarian” rye/phacelia. If the rye is well established, some leverage with a fork may be required. Alfalfa requires a little more effort to get out but as with all my crops I sow in rows to make for easier management. I chop alfalfa as close to the surface as possible, it is not pernicious and in my opinion the (quite extensive) roots are beneficial in ways that I do not fully understand. I believe alfalfa is leguminous but wether this means it leaves a nitrogen residue I do not know. Its deep rooted, scavenging minerals and nutrients and I`m pretty sure it helps to aereate the soil. In answer to your last question; I cut the alfalfa whenever there is a lot of top growth, I don`t have any fixed time, its perennial and comes back with lots of fresh growth.

Hope this helps

Pete:-)

[compostpopeParticipant]

Hi Pete

Thanks for taking the time in clearing up those points for me – I shall add alfalfa and Hungarian rye grass to my Christmas-wish list.

I shall be doing more composting than veg growing in the next couple of years as I concentrate on building up the fertility of the soil and I won’t be any rush to plant in my “green manure” beds once the ryegrass and alfalfa are finished. Consequently I think I will be mulching them with cardboard and compost once they’ve had their final cut and thereby not disturbing the soil structure by too much pulling and levering with a fork. We get drier summers here so there shouldn’t be too much of an increased slug problem as it breaks down.

Thanks once again, it’s been really helpful to read your responses.

Compostpope

[compostpopeParticipant]

Thanks for your response Diggernotdreamer (though I must say I would have thought that you could have come up with a more appropriate name for use on this web-site!!). It’s good to know that I will be able to produce good compost with just the mowings and shreddings (and not forgetting the personal activator).

By the way, why do most books say to make compost in layers? The advantage is’nt obvious to me and I’ve made much better compost by chopping up all my garden waste material into roughly 4 inch lengths with a type of machete and stirring it all together like a big pudding. It seems to compost much quicker this way…

Compostpope

[diggernotdreamerMember]

This is the mighty thing about gardening, I think, is that there is no single way to do anything. What works for you is important. I used to make compost with all the garden waste, grass mowings, etc and put in layers when I made a heap from scratch i.e. I had saved up all the materials needed, bit like a lasagne, then when I turned it it gave me a good mix of materials, too thick layer of grass mowings stick together and produce a grey fungus in the middle, so it makes sense to layer this in or stir it in well. Now all the veg peelings and weeds get fed to my extensive collection of poultry and comes out now as a handy compost activator on the shavings they get bedded on, so now the only stuff that goes on would be if I have been given lots of mowings, which I work in with a cultivator and blighted potato haulms which I cook in the hot heap. Turning and working the heap in my experience in the quickest way to get useable compost quickly. Oh, you are right, twenty five years no digging and I call myself Digger doh!!

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