[Stevie342000Member]

After the initial problems around water-logging of my allotment plot, there has been some progress made. Since my first growing season last year, which was far from adequate.

Trying to sort out the whole plot for growing with limited resources meant a decreased harvest. 50% of the plot was in use but it was a continual bind between weeding that and trying to keep the slugs down and keeping on top of the section which was not in use.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, the half of the plot which was not in use should really have been covered over to stop any further growth.

Other problems included finishing my degree and the preceding winter being a wet one when the site was taken on in November 2009.

Last year, having tried and failed to produce an adequate crop and at the same time trying to keep the council of my back for not maintaining 50% of the plot in production was like fighting a loosing battle.

But it seems I have it almost cracked. Currently I have 3 more 4′ wide strips by 33′ long to complete with a layer of manure. Along with a an area for seating and the poly-tunnel to install. There is to be a pond at the other end of the plot over by the sheds.

The plan being to raise the level as previous occupiers lowered the level of the plot creating the problems with water logging by skimming off the top layer. The whole site for the allotments suffers from this problem, even the new plots they have put in with land drains at the cost of £100K are not perfect and still suffer from water logging.

Rather than create my own blog for now, I will post my adventures in vegetable growing land as a series of updates on this thread so other people can learn from the mistakes that I have made, there are no hard and fast rules and one size does not fit all.

Perhaps a good place to start would be at the beginning….

[Stevie342000Member]

Perhaps another route would have been to take cuttings from the desired fruit bushes at the appropriate time of the year of course and then to nurture these into new healthy bushes, then transplanting them into their new site.

Cropping the old ones only, then composting the old bushes; after planting up the new bushes in March. Lots of fruit trees, bushes or plants benefit from not being cropped in their first season. If they are raspberries of course then it is simple cut the canes down once you have removed them from the soil and transplant, autumn fruit raspberries will fruit in that year (of course they should be replanted from October to March). Summer fruiting raspberries will crop the following year.

Is this correct?

[Stevie342000Member]

Ben

How did your potatoes turn out in the end? From what I have read, the method is to top off soil with manure and/or a layer of compost upon which you plant your potatoes, then to top that off with a thick layer of manure/compost.

One of the guys on the plot next to mine uses this method, unbeknown to him he is using a variation on the no dig principle.

As I was not fully aware of No Dig when I planted my chitted potatoes in early or late March. I was advised by an old timer to use a layer of leaf mould cover that with a layer of soil in your trench and then to bank up all the soil as per normal.

Although that was not no dig the soil afterwards was so vastly improved it got me thinking and researching no dig later on in the year.

[Stevie342000Member]

Goodness me Charles you were up before the larks this morning. I thought I had got up early with sunrise, oh well those salad leaves are not going to pick themselves and make their own way to the shops or the market.

Yes the term Organic like many other terms has been twisted over the years. Having read the list of permitted chemicals as allowed under EU regulations, there are many that I would not use.

I will be sticking to manure, compost, kitchen waste, vegetable wastes from growing, fish, blood and bone and to raise or lower pH Lime, sulphate of ammonia or urea (which I think is free so that fits in with frugality).

From what I have read and understood the healthier the soil the less likely you are to get as many pests. Unhealthy soil attracts them more readily than healthy soils.

Ah one more dose, as there has been frequent rain here it is Greater Manchester you know, it was seen as needing another dose of pellets. As the pellets had disappeared, just a light scattering of pellets is all that has ever been applied (scorched earth policy, probably more than I should have used but hey the manufacturers like you to use more, how do they make their profits otherwise?).

Do the pellets dissolve and the chemicals remain in or on the soil surface? The pellets were applied to the areas where the cabbages are growing. These areas have been inter-planted with Shenshyu onions and spring onions to act as a further deterrent to the little darlings. Whilst the latter and the former establish themselves. Oh it was crawling with the little bleeders. They seem to have diminished considerably, so use in future hopefully will be limited.

[Stevie342000Member]

Rebecca

In an ideal world I would agree but there are number of issues with this site that I have issue with. If you see my other posts and then perhaps look at the welcome by Charles you may be some way to understanding what my issues are.

It seems that the site offers advise on do as I say not as I do. In my other post New allotment no dig or new plots, dock, couch grass etc.

I have it seems written too much and that I should only be posting evidence of what my efforts have achieved. Now given that I am new to no dig just as you as it seems this is not a discussion site. It is one in which some members pat each other on the back and say oh how wonderful we all are.

This tirade I suspect will get me booted but hey who cares. Charles has questioned my approach about digging the plot over before I cover it with manure and then with compost in spring. My allotment site was severely waterlogged. It is hoped that by digging the soil over and turning the grass and burying it will kill it off. It has already been weakened by the use of weedkiller. Another no no but given that an allotment site which has not been used for 5 years may have had any old rubbish put on it makes little difference if you take this approach. When if you go to take a look at Welcome by Charles he indeed dug over his site before taking a similar approach to me.

Another is that I am layering my compost or my ground with bark chip before applying lime. Lime does need to be used to counter-act acidity, trust me I have a degree in this area and we did a lot of work on soil types and how to rectify problems.

So whilst I may not be taking the route that others have done the outcome is the same. There may be judicious use of what are perceived as chemicals right now but having checked with the soil association and reading the policy documents on what is or is not allowed it seems that I am within the remit for organic growing.

So again I ask myself what is the problem here, is that because I do not fall down on bending knee or my ears are deaf to what comes out of the mouths or is it that I do not fit here in the site users or owners eyes? Not sure what it is but it is a mystery to me why my presence should cause such consternation.

It takes all sorts to make up society and there is enough rigidity around already without us all bickering and squabbling.

Can we all put this matter to rest and continue on the basis that any questions that I may ask in future are as valid as anyone else’s. After all we are all here to get advise but that should all come with a pinch of salt. There is more than one way to get to the same route end. As long as the end is the same and you stay within the guidance framework or principles of No Dig or Organics, it does not exclusively follow that they go hand in hand for all people either.

No Dig principle is nothing new after all nature has been doing it for lot longer than any of us have. In future should I remain then perhaps I will start a new thread outlining all that I have done in the past 12 months, as a series of smallish posts for peeps to see how the issues were dealt with.

[Stevie342000Member]

Whilst there may be thoughts that my approach is over complicated perhaps that lies in the details but for me it is simply of statements which are posed as a series of open questions for response from those are who are in the know.

Whilst it may be felt that my posts are outside of the remit of this forum, where do you suggest I find out the information that I need if this is not the appropriate forum for gaining information on No Dig?

The reason for the chipped bark on top of the compost and then sprinkling with lime was that the manure was very fresh and still steaming. Way too much ammonia which I thought needed a barrier between the manure and the lime, hence the lime and bark chippings.

Slug pellets are used to protect what crops I have and have been used what you may seem excessively but not everything can be controlled by organic methods. I have heard this from organic gardeners who grow commercially that outside of the workplace they use a mix and match method and try to remain as organic as possibly when growing for themselves. Whilst you and others may not agree with this method there is more than one way to skin a mongoose. What does it matter what you do as long as the results are consistent, whilst doing the minimum damage to the environment.

My approach is to use the minimum amount of chemicals if at all and to be as organic as I possibly can in the real world. I have no control over what others do at the plots next to mine which in turn may cause problems on my plot. Whilst I am in transition what choice do I have?

Sometimes it needs a scorched earth principle to counteract these problems. Simple questions are all well and good but growing is a complex matter.

As for the mystery of composting, I thought it was standard practice to build up a compost heap in layers, so I fail to see why anyone else is mystified. Am I doing it wrong? What else am I hear for but advise and experience which I can use to formulate my own method and adaptation of methods and principles used by others. One size does not fit all and any plan or policy on growing should be adaptable. Using the KiSS principle of course. Oh Keep it Simple Stupid, which is how I approach my posts, by supplying all the information in what I have done or plan to do, so that hopefully those who consider themselves to be more expert can offer their advice which I can then take on-board, I fail to see what the problem or the issues are? Are we not all here to gain more knowledge and information.

And finally the mystery of digging, it is for the first and last time before moving over to no digging. As I have limited income, I can not go out and buy lorry loads of manure or compost/top soil as unfortunately I am not Middle Class which is what is perceived of the many people who grow whether that is organically or not by the majority of society. Nor am I currently employed, yes one of the great unwashed. So for clarity let me explain lest there should be any confusion.

The soil on my allotment site suffers from water logging, the level in relation to the paths or from front to back of my plot does not help in the matter. In order to finally kill off the couch grass, I will dig it all over for the first and final time. Then top it with bark chip, manure and finally top dress it with compost from my newly made bins in spring. This then gives me a medium to grow in. Resolving a number of problems killing off the couch grass, raising the soil level and aerating the soil so those wonderful little beasties can get to doing there work faster. Has the confusion arisen because this is a No Dig site and I am digging? Oh dear, sorry for the confusion, my allotment plot is in transition to No Dig.

So what is the problem, am I not here for advise or are you all from the “We know best school of thought”?
P.S there are 3 ways to skin a mongoose.
Unfortunately it seems I do not fit in to your square holes as I am round peg.

[Stevie342000Member]

I agree, clear the weeds, top dress with 50mm or more each of manure and compost. The no dig principle does allow you to be cropping, planning, planting crops all year round.

Many people on allotments make the mistake of just growing from spring to autumn, which to me is a waste, what about the rest of the year?

My plot is coming on nicely, will be approaching my second year of growing in early November. The first lot of manure arrived today, so gave my trenches between my late crop of potatoes a top dressing, rounded off with chipped bark and then a small sprinkling of lime, to balance any acidity. Hopefully this will protect them until Christmas so we can have new potatoes with out Christmas lunch.

The idea to is to keep the potatoes warm now that the weather is getting colder. Gave a top dressing of manure around my fruit bushes and raked it over to kill off any grass and to feed the bushes ready for next spring.

The compost bins got a few loads of manure as well, the smaller one just one load the second much larger 4′ x 12′ bin got several loads, this will be topped off with some bark and then piled up with more manure. The idea being that this will all be ready for top dressing in spring.

There are some crops planted as well, 60 cabbages/cauliflowers and radar onions, spring onions. The 32′ x 6′ plot got some broad beans (aqua dulce) planted in them last week ready for picking in spring.

Well that is me done for today, more digging tomorrow before more manure arrives at the weekend if not before. Away for a few days from Wednesday, so it will get one more dose of slug pellets before I go away just to deter the slugs, will be moving away from those in the coming years but for now will stick with them. So for now that is half the plot dug over or with crops in it or top dressed with manure and chipped bark. That just leaves the remainder of the plot which will be covered in chipped bark/manure ready for top dressing of compost in spring.

[Stevie342000Member]

Upon reflection and more than a little sleep, it occurred to me that the principle I was using last year before the organics ran out was to cover the plot and to use the No Dig approach to sorting the issues with the plot that I have.

One of the ideas pondered upon last year was to put in a central drainage ditch with feathers running into to it from across the plot.

It looks as though this is going to be more and more the case that this will need to be implemented.

Thinking it through with the reading of the last few days and the discovery that the plot is once again water logged, has resulted with me revisiting this thought.

The current thinking is to follow the No Dig for the 4′ growing strips across the plot and to utilise the paths as the drainage feathers leading to the central ditch which terminates at the water butt with a larger square dug out as a sump area.

But in the meantime if the rain will hold off for the rest of the day, it is time to dig those ditches to a depth of 18″ at the centre point sloping to the sump area. Then to allow the water to collect in that ditch/sup, pump it into my water butt with my handy dandy pump on a drill attachment or into a nearby drainage ditch on another plot which goes straight into the drains.

Then to fill in the ditches (forming the paths)with chipped bark and the removed top soil as a finish, the addition of further layers of chipped bark over the coming years will raise the path. Bark is being used instead of shingle as I can not afford shingle apart from which there is a clause in tenancy which says it is prohibited anyhow.

This hopefully will solve the problem of a lack of drainage of course the drainage ditch is two fold when it comes to watering the 1000 gallon water butt can be turned on and water filters through the plot via the drainage ditch.

However it is my thinking that once the soil has been utilised with the No Dig method that the problem of water logging will disappear, as it is tied in with the hard pan formed in the past usage of the site and the couch grass which interferes with drainage. But the belt and braces method will do no harm, applications of lime to the soil will stop any over acidity, as it is common for manure to be brought to our site when it is not really well rotted, but you have to take it or miss out on your share.

It looks as though it is going to be a labour intensive autumn for me if the plot is to be ready for growing next year. A large 6′ x 6′ composting area will be under construction shortly which should help with creating my own compost for the site in the coming years. Composting is the key to all this; that and the rotted manure but before those can be applied the site needs raising and other than digging it over then applying the top dressings not much is going to change.

Perhaps digging it all over with the drainage ditches being put in place first will go some way and then applying the top dressing, this would raise the level and if the paths/drainage is put in first this would further aid the drainage of the site. But there are some areas which are just so low that there is no other choice than to fill them in with bark chips. One size does not fit all and it certainly will not work on this much neglected site. Onwards and upwards…oh well it looks like rain again now….

[Stevie342000Member]

Well took a small trip down to the allotment today, it’s 3 miles from home in old money or 30 minutes on the bus.

We have had a little rain here over the last few days, the plot was once again fit for growing rice.

Which is why my return to no dig gardening is so appealing, the plot has not seen any growing in the last 5 years, I inherited the plot last November.

Having dug over part of it so that I could get some crops in for this year, has been a trial, its me against the slugs, this year they ate more than we did.

Recently planted 60 potatoes for autumn/winter cropping and 64 cabbages/cauliflowers, this time I bit the bullet and used slug pellets, so far so good it has kept them at bay.

Then I rediscovered during that time period the no dig principle of growing, to me it makes sense as you are not disturbing the micro-organisms that build up in the soil.

So with this in my mind I went to the plot mid-afternoon today with the intention of digging out those pesky weeds (sorry plants in the wrong place), docks, marestail and dandelions. These have duly been despatched and added to my bucket with a hole along with the comfrey to rot down to make liquid fertiliser. The safest way accept burning to deal with them.

Well the goodness is the nice men from the council had dropped about 3 tonnes of shredded bark and leaves for me at the top of my plot. Last year I managed to nab them and got 3 truck loads of leaves, which they had collected from the local park.

The problem with our allotment is that during the whole of the summer and before spring all the manure had gone and was not replaced. To me this bad policy as it should be rotted down before putting on your plots. Which makes the no dig process for me a slow one. But will have words with a colleague who’s daughter is a bit of horse rider, to see if they can drop some off at a specific time to me at my allotment plot.

Compost not a problem as it was my plan to place 7 sheets of news paper down between a 6″ layer of manure and compost (we have a group composting area) so it is off with the wheelbarrow for me.

This has now changed slightly as I will be awaiting the next lot of shredded bark and manure before I can add the compost, which should serve me as a start to grow in from this year onwards.

As the leaves, shredded bark and compost are on a first come first served basis it is my intention to get more than my fair share, such is life.

But the level of my plot is about 12-18″ too low which is why it floods, that and the fact that the soil is compacted, it is my intention to let the little critters do the work of digging it for me, leaving me with a fine tilth.

Then to top the whole plot up each year with more manure and compost (my own of course), pity the weather here is not warmer and the days longer as I could grow a lovely crop of rice right now. Anyone for stir-fry?

But then again I will have to play it by ear lest I should miss out on enough, compost, manure and shredded bark or leaves to cover the whole plot, which was the problem last year, it all ran out before I could get to it.

[Stevie342000Member]

Thanks Charles, with all the projects that we are involved in besides the allotment not sure that there would be enough time to right a book. Beyond writing it where do you start with getting it published.

Apart from which do we need another one on growing and concepts that we perceive as new which in fact are not, raising awareness that working the soil in a more naturalistic way, whilst protecting biodiversity by minimal use of chemicals or choosing plant species according to your area in the country or protecting heritage seeds with a mix or modern blends. They all have their place perhaps this is an area that could do with further research and publication.

As for ponds it is not about the frogs or the toads, it is about the food chains and webs that that allows to develop in the area that you are growing in. Stronger more diverse food chains and webs means in the longer term that there are more predators, succession will ensure over time that there will be a top predator. Which in the longer term is good for the environment and your growing of food stuffs.

Growing fruit, vegetables and flowers for the home is about more than just the growing if we are to succeed in ensuring that our food is free from chemicals by growing it ourselves the environment needs to be protected in that process.

Back to the plot, the marestail is not near to the edges it is in patches across the plot there is not a particular lot of it, when you consider the size of the plot which is 82′ x 32′ or so about a square foot tightly packed would be about right. I heard the only thing to do is too keep hacking away at it and it will eventually give up the ghost. The roots go down to hades or 2 metres or more, so are very difficult to remove, this of course goes against the no dig policy as well.

Turning over of soil by digging destroys the horizons within the soils which form naturally, which is what the No Digging is about, it is about returning the soil back to nature and letting nature do the digging for you, whether that be at the micro, meso or macrophyte level. The soil is a living organism, there are complex relationships between plants, their roots, and organisms that live in the soil. It’s like yoghurt it is a living culture, so digging it breaks up that culture.

As for seeds, a mixture of hybrid and heritage is the way to go for me, a lot of F1 species such as Tomato Inca F1 are designed to be used outside, which is a plus point, as it frees up greenhouse space. Especially for other species from the tomato family i.e. Aubergines, Peppers etc.

As for slugs they should reduce over the next year due to the clearance, so much of what you do in growing is common sense, if there are less or no weeds or places for them to hide then they will be no food. Of course there is no food for them so that controls numbers as well.

The reason for companion planting flowers, fruit and vegetables for me is one of that is how it would be in nature but in a managed way. What you are trying to achieve is a variety of foods for different invertebrates. The pond for me is there to encourage damsel and dragonflies, what is nicer than to be sat under the shade of the tree, with a steak on the grill and to see such sights as you sit reading a book on your bench? The mixing of fruit trees/bushes, vegetables and flowers in the same space is the way it would have been done in the days before mechanisation, which is what Larkrise to Candleford is about if you look hard enough or Cranford.

The idea is to encourage more invertebrates such as hoverflies, butterflies and other creepy crawlies is to have a refuge one which pollinates your plants and in turn is aesthetically and visually pleasing to the eye.

Should plots be left bare in winter? Not for me they should be productive all year round we are not in farming; a mistake many make with their regimented rows. Square foot planting is an interesting concept, in a square foot you could for instance plant 4 lettuces inter-planted with 16 radishes or 1 cabbage and 4 lettuces.

Not forgetting green manures which play a role in fixing nutrients, nitrogen is water soluble and will leach out of the soil, hence my concerns of bare soil, look at grass it is lush and green most of the year but yellowing in spring. Why? partly due to lower light levels or being covered with snow but mostly due to the leaching of nitrogen and the inability of symbiotic bacteria/fungi not being able to fix nitrogen for the grass, ergo yellow grass.

Of course it is all about how much do you want to grow, how much can you store, how do you store you produce? There are older methods, such as a cool shed or cellar for the roots and fruits which store such as carrots, potatoes, apples and pears. Then there are chutneys, pickles, jams and other preserves and lets not forget drying and freezing.

There are varieties which can be grown all year round, the lunar calendar does play a role in when you plant, from a scientific standpoint, if a crop has a high water content it then follows that that will be influenced by the moon, if the latter can influence the tides it then follows that it will affect crops.

Another reason for me to grow flowers as well is for the herbal remedies that can be concocted from these, as in James Wong, some of those receipts are old not knew. Is there nothing new under the sun or are we just re-inventing the wheel?

For me it is about getting back to nature but in doing that it is not necessarily associated with the yoghurt weaving or living in a yhert, nor is it hippy dippy green movement who in general mostly alienate a whole section of society. Sustainability is not just about cutting consumerism, it is economic and political but the other aspect is not it the right thing to be doing, we are very wasteful and we have finite resources.

Well that is chapter two finished, never did do short always did long and I think you will find I have used exactly the right amount of words to say what I needed to say.

[Author]

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