This topic contains 32 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by John 8 years, 2 months ago.
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As we are no-diggers we can just debate the no-dig part of your post. All vegetation has growth within the soil as well as top growth and I remove only the top growth to the compost bin. The roots do much to improve soil structure and fertility and some green manures harvest minerals from deep down in the soil.
Pet Budd and others have argued the case for using green manures to create sufficient compost to apply to beds as an alternative to importing organic content via deliveries of municipal compost or farmyard manure. Pete is able to be self sufficient in compost by using 1/4 of his plot for green manure while others advocate using 1/3 of the plot.
This question has actually been debated before. See this article
I wrote in an earlier post “I have been inspired by a writer who had several plots close to mine between 1970and 1990 and he used his plots to try to answer the question ‘Can a given level of food production be maintained, or even increased, with systems that are, as far as possible, self-contained?’ He grew green manure rather than using imported compost. Charles has his book, ‘Questioning Garden’ by Nic Pawson and his ideas have also been published in Patrick Whitfield’s book, ‘How to make a Forest Garden’ seen in the margin on this page.
Hi John,
I read over the article you linked to and since I made my comments then I have completely embraced Charles’s no-dig method.
I am even more convinced now that growing a green manure is never going to provide you with sufficient compost to cover your needs. You simply have to use large quanties of other materials, leaves, paper, vegetable waste, grass clippings, etc, etc.
I completely understand the need to be careful about what we “import” for the compost heap. That goes without saying.
I use grass clippings from my immediate neighbours and they will advise me if they ever apply anything to their lawns (if I don’t notice first!).
I also use newspaper and cardboard from local shops. Coffee grounds (very occasionally) from a local café.
Then of course there are the normal household waste materials and the autumn leaves from my local park and immediate green areas (the council love me!)
In addition I order my Horse Manure (free, and 18 months to 24 months old) from a local stud farm and I leave it to continue composting for a further 6-9 months before I use it .
If you want quantities of materials to grow I would strongly advise setting aside an area for 6-12 Russian Comfrey plants. You will get at least 4 cuttings from these plants per season and in addition to giving you a lot of bulk for the heap you can also get quiet a substantial amount of liquid feed from them. This in my humble opinion is far more practical than setting aside 25/33% of your plot to grow material for your compost bin.
I could go on and on but I think, and I fully embrace the Organic gardening method and consider myself to be one,
this is an issue we each need to resolve to our own satisfaction.
Like Doctors, Gardeners differ and plants die (or perhaps thrive less)
Nice hearing from you again.Don.
Don
The other discussion concerns how much green manure you can generate ‘filling in’ slots around the garden where you are simply not able to grow a crop at that time. Ditto over-wintering.
I don’t have an answer yet, but the field beans I put in in October last year just as an over-wintering crop will provide significant waste for the compost pile – I could have grown many more on another two beds and, in fact, may do in seasons ahead.
That method would be focussing more on generating compost than improving soil structure and fertility directly, as the green manures would be short-term, rapidly growing crops only in the ground for under six months.
I’m like you at the moment, importing horse manure, filching cardboard from the local garden centre skips, recycling newspapers and using grass clippings, not to mention my 10 comfrey plants, in addition to all the spent foliage of harvested crops, to create the 1.5 cubic metres of compost I need to cover the garden sufficiently – that’s 5cm annual coverage.
This season I will also experiment small-scale with a few cover crops (like clover under climbing beans) to see if there is any benefit to the soil from creating complete coverage during the summer……
One of the more interesting approaches I have read about is found at:
http://thefoodiebugle.com/article/kitchen-garden/rotation-rotation-rotation – Tasmin Borlase uses 2.5 years of cover crops in a 12 year rotation to restore fertility to the soil, clearing out the green manure using a pig tractor. She does this professionally I believe……..
Hi Don
You write that “growing a green manure is never going to provide you with sufficient compost to cover your needs. You simply have to use large quanties of other materials, leaves, paper, vegetable waste, grass clippings, etc, etc.”
As the saying goes, “never say never”. The two gardeners I have referenced, Pete and Nick, seem to have done just that and, in theory, if we used the whole of a spare plot for green manure, we could start an export business!
I am at the early stages of my experiments with green manure and, following Charles’ advice and that of Nick Pawson, I have used a ‘starter pack’ of fym on my new plot, Plot 248. Last year I composted everything from my first plot, Plot 250, (minimal green manure) as well as fruit and veg waste from home, and my heap has generated some but not nearly enough good compost. With dedicated growing of green manure on Plot 248 I am hopeful that I will get sufficient compost for my needs.
Ah ha!
A dedicated/spare Plot just for growing Green Manure. That’s a very different kettle of fish. The original thread dealt with allocating 25/30% of your Plot just for Green Manure.
But this is just the same as allocating 50% of your growing area for Green Manure.
That’s obviously even more wasteful of available resources.
But good luck with it.Don.
Hi Don,
As I mentioned, using the whole plot was for an export business, just a joke! I think the recommendation is for 25-33%. I meant dedicated growing of green manure in part of the new plot, such as semi-permanent growing of comfrey, alfalfa and grazing rye, rather than dedicated use of the whole plot. Sorry if I misled you.
I also think I would take issue with you over ‘even more wasteful of available resources’ if 50% of the growing area was used. Growing your own compost precludes the use of resources in importing goods. Even importing a load of manure or foraging in garden centres for cardboard has its own carbon footprint.
It’s back to the original quote from Nick Pawson’s experimental plots – ‘Can a given level of food production be maintained, or even increased, with systems that are, as far as possible, self-contained?’
Hi All,
I realise my preceeding reply was a little terse and I apologise for same.
I’m not at all convinced that Green Manure is of any significant value over using FYM/HM/Garden Compost.
I would agree it is certainly better than nothing if you have insufficient quantities of the aforementioned composts to cover everything.
But that said, with a lot, not all, of these Green Manures they need to be dug in to add any benefit otherwise there is a net loss of nutrients from that particular bed.
As we are no-dig followers digging in is not an option/should be avoided as far as possible – I’m thinking here of Potatoes or Parsnips left in the ground over winter. And remember, depending on your rotation, the Potato Bed and Parsnip Bed will not require that digging for another 4 years so it will have completely recovered by then.
I believe the best way is to create as much garden compost as we can each reasonably manage and supplement this with good quality FYM/HM or indeed Seaweed if your lucky enough to live within easy reach of the coast.Don.
I am growing comfrey as a ‘green manure’ as I feel it fits better with the No Dig methods, giving an additional source of nutrients that can be used when planting or as a water on feed.
Unless you are abel to grow a lot of it I suppose that it is lacking a bit in humus but otherwise fits the bill?Hi Bluebell,
I absolutely agree with you. I think every Plot should have a few Comfrey Plants. 6-12 plants at 2′ eachway takes up very little space compared to the return you get from these, a cut every 4/5 weeks from April to September.
I cultivate a Nettle patch also.Don.
Interesting discussion everyone.
Green manures can be smothered/ light excluded to save incorporating them and they may bring value to the soil via energy absorbed from the sun. Personal ethos could also influence decision making here; see “Growing Green” by Iain Tolhurst as an example.
Pete??
Yes its a great discussion and thanks to Pete starting it. I notice how green manures provoke some lively comments on my courses. Farmers are looking at ways to stop their cover crops growing, by bruising them, (to save both money and soil life/structure) then they leave the debris on top, or lightly till it in – but I think many of them use slug pellets. In a garden we can remove the top growth to compost, if we want to.
Hi John,
Just going back to the original question;
“It’s back to the original quote from Nick Pawson’s experimental plots – ‘Can a given level of food production be maintained, or even increased, with systems that are, as far as possible, self-contained?’”This question needs clarifying before a really definitive answer can be arrived at.
For instance, what does he mean by as “far as possible”? Does he not imply/acknowledge in that short phrase that not every system can be totally self-contained. And what exactly does he mean by self-contained? Within your Plot, Allotment Group, the actual field the Allotments are in, or the general area.The point you make about the carbon footprint created by sourcing materials from off the plot is not really valid or, in my case at least, significant as anything I put on my heap comes from places I pass by everyday so no additional carbon footprint there.
BTW. If you are going to plant Russian Comfrey plant it somewhere you are not likely to need for the next 20 years!! Russian Comfrey is sterile so wont spread all over your plot but it has a vigorous taproot which can reach up to 8m deep very quickly and you wont get that lot out very easily. Also it will quickly regrow from any piece of root left in the ground.
I would encourage you to get a few root cuttings and grow it. I use the “Comfrey Tea” on everything during the growing season and you can really see the difference it makes in particular to Tomatoes and Potatoes but also around the flower garden.Don.
Hi Don
I think the quote from Nick refers to a guiding principle rather than an absolute set of rules. His experiment was for a limited area of home/allotment but he was interested both philosophically and practically on the feasability of the principle on a much lager scale, even to farming systems on a world scale, particularly in developing countries.
If you want ‘a really definitive answer’ and quibble about the use of terms such as ‘as far as possible’ then the idea of this guiding principle is possibly not for you.
Charles also uses his method as a guiding principle rather than as a set of absolute rules. On the front page of the website is a photo of Charles holding a splendid bunch of parsnips and his expression is more one of delight for his crop rather than concerns about how he might have disturbed the soil a little in getting them out!
Thanks for the comments on comfrey which I have been cropping for some time. In case others are reading this it is important to note that not all Russian Comfrey is sterile. The Bocking 14 variety is recommended by most garden writers.
Don
Try comfrey tea on runner/climbing beans on fruit days once pods have set – they grow much quicker than without feeding……that may or may not be something you want to do, but this past summer when the night time heat meant I hardly had any fruit set before the end of august, the acceleration to picking made a big difference to overall yield for the season…….
Goodness Rhys! Last summer I did not need to encourage beans. More find ways to use them! Although in a dry summer it may be useful
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